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TUMBLEWEED58

Articles Posted: 21  Links Seeded: 16
Member Since: 10/2008  Last Seen: 4/18/2012

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Normal: What Is It? And Who Sets The Standards?

Thu Jan 1, 2009 9:15 PM EST
entertainment, psychology, divorce, courts, fiction, therapy, judges, counseling, sbutki-fiction, skeptic, cynic
By Tumbleweed58

Photo by [Flickr User]. (License: Creative Commons Attribution)

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(Dedicated to Marjorie W., R.I.P.)

Kay was a matronly attractive woman in her late seventies who still practiced within the realms of her lifelong profession as a therapist, although now just on a part time basis. She was very intelligent and held a double Masters Degree. My lawyer had referred me to her, and this was about my fourth session with her.

Wisps of white hair framed a slightly wrinkled, full face that clear, bright, knowing eyes looked out from as she asked me, "What would you do if it was a blizzard out and he came knocking on your door, needing a place to stay, and something to eat? What if he told you he had no place else to go? Would you let him in?

The "he" she was referring to was my soon to be ex-husband. I looked at the blue carpet on the floor and scooted my butt deeper into the cheap red vinyl chair, forcing myself to relax my hold on the wooden armrests before answering her. There were no couches here.

We had been over this before, and in exasperation I said, "I would let him in."

"That's not what I want to hear." Her voice was thick with disappointment. Or was it disapproval? She continued, "That isn't a normal response."

I argued, "He's still the father of my children. And he is also a human being". I looked her square and tried to keep my right eyebrow from rising as that, I was sure, would be an accurate show of the frustration I was already beginning to feel.

"Kay, what IS normal? Are you saying I"M not normal? That I"M not competent? That I'M 'crazy' or something?"

Kay was silent for a moment as she perused my face. Then gave her head a slight side to side shake as she quietly explained, "No, I didn't mean that at all. I'm just saying that you are getting a divorce and you cannot let this man back into your life. Not under ANY circumstances!" She was adamant. "It isn't 'normal' for you to still care about him like this. Not when you're getting a divorce".

l countered, "Well, as I just said, he is STILL the father of my children, and getting divorced will never change that. What would my kids think if they found out that I had turned him away and put him out in the cold? I can't, and won't, do that! Not to my little boys! Normal or not. But you still haven't told me what you mean by 'normal'.

She expelled a tired sigh, then, "Normal is the 'usual'. It's the 'standard'. It's what MOST people would do in a given situation. And most women in your situation would not let the man in."

By this time I had gotten out of the chair and was pacing the center of the room. "I am not MOST women. I am me and this is MY situation! This is totally absurd! He's not going to hurt us or anything. He's never laid a hand on me".

I returned to stand behind the chair I had recently vacated and queried further, "Normal? By whose standards? So you're telling me that if you have a bowel movement three times a day, and I only have one maybe once every three days, that you would be normal, but I'm not? Kay was trying to hide a smile but her eyes were twinkling as she watched me. I swear I heard her stifle a giggle.

I also noted that my voice had risen and I realized I needed a concentrated effort to re-gain my composure. I told myself to take deep breaths and to calm down. Breathe and focus. I slowly and quietly exhaled. I closed my eyes and felt my nostrils flare as I sucked in a fresh breath. I placed my fidgeting hands on the back of the chair, and making a visible effort to lower my voice, I continued, "Who makes this stuff up anyway? Some so called 'expert'? Humph!"

Kay said, "Normal is a standard that has been set by society, and in order to fit in you need to conform to that way of thinking."

She put her hand up to silence me as I opened my mouth to speak. I closed my mouth. But by now I knew I was glaring at her. I turned and walked over to a bookcase along the wall and stared at the various titles as she added, "It's true that we are all individuals and while we need to hold onto that, we don't want to become TOO different either. So we have to 'bend' a little in order to fit in with everyone else".

In a snotty voice I again referenced the bowel movements, "So am I suppose to take a dump three times a day? Or is once every three days okay? Who's gonna know? Who's gonna care? What does 'society' say is 'normal' about that?"

Kay looked at her watch and lifted the legal pad from her lap. Wheeling her high backed executives chair closer to her desk she laid the pad down and picked up her date book, saying, "Unfortunately our time is up. We can continue this next time, but I want you to work on this. You need to have the right answer in order to convince the Judge if it comes up in court." She began studying her schedule to pencil in our next meeting.

**********

We never did reach an agreement concerning "what is normal" and "by whose standards", and it never came up in court. However, before it was all said and done, Kay had dubbed me the most cynically skeptical person she had ever met. We developed a close friendship and stayed in touch over the next few years until her death.

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Tumbleweed58

So what is normal?  And who determines it?

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 10:53 PM EST
Scott (Scoop) Butki

This is excellent. Clipped to my column and Newsviner’s Picks.

 Count me as among those who think Kay’s question/exchange was inappropriate and wrong-headed – it’s like she expected you to hate and mistreat your ex-husband (which is what I’d call not letting him if he were, say, dying on your doorstep)

But then I’m never been a fan of normal myself. Perhaps that’s why I fit in so well with my special needs clients who are prone to telling me things like “you are something else” (still waiting for word on what exactly I am)

Scott

p.s. I have to document bowel movements for these guys so I can document if they are “normal” and “average” in that way as well.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:47 PM EST
Tumbleweed58

Thanks Scott so glad you liked it.    :)

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:02 AM EST
Scott (Scoop) Butki

You are quite a writer

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 1:34 PM EST
Tumbleweed58

*smiles*  Wow. Thanks again!  I am very flattered!  :)

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 7:15 PM EST
palabracho

Normal, in my neighborhood in Seattle is far different from the Normal across the Lake in Bellevue. 

I like 'our' Normal.

I like your story as well!

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:50 PM EST
Miss_Diagnosed

Sounds like the difference between "normal" in Boulder Colorado, and everywhere else palabracho...

    #1.6 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:15 PM EST
    worldcurmudgeon

    What is normal, that is a good question. I think the insurance companies build their actuary tables around this concept. Scott's column led me here and it was an interesting read.

    What I gathered from it was the woman was going through a divorce, she felt an obligation to her family to let her ex in and entertain while the kids could enjoy his company. I think, and I may be wrong, that this was not a norman relationship any more because they were divorced, and (not knowing if the woman was abused or cheated on, etc) their family unit was now different, not the norman unit, that changes had been made, and she needed to keep him out of her sexual and emotional life.

    Anyway, that was my thinking on it.

    No one wants to be 'norman' in the sense that we are boring, insignificant, and uninteresting. We like to be different, and be recognized for our different accomplishments. How we are different,well that depends on many things.

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 6:59 AM EST
    Tumbleweed58

    @ palabracho; Miss Diagnosed; and worldcurmudgeon.....since it won't let me reply to each of you individually I am forced to combine my responses.  My apologies.

    Thank you all for stopping by and reading my story.  What you are saying about normal on one side of the "river", the "tracks", etc. I was thinking of just last night, and to me that would be along the lines of "classes"....lower class, upper class, etc.  The "class" differences are still thriving yet today (unfortunately) and is evidenced by all the bias and even racism shown by and toward some.  But still interesting comment(s). 

    The woman in this story was not abused, so didn't feel at risk to let him in, and in fact wanted him to maintain a relationship with his two children.  In fact,(I guess I didn't put it in the story---sorry) the two parents knew they were so unhappy that they agreed to part, but they also agreed they both still needed to be a big part in the childrens' lives and to reassure the kids that they were loved and not to blame for the parents splitting up.   But the "counselor" was trying to tell her that was wrong and needed to change her attitude, to be more in line with the "norm" of turning children against the absent parent.  (Personally, I hate when people "screw-up" their kids that way.  It makes me angry.   Gggrrrrrr!)

    You're also right (I think) that we all want to be different, at least to an extent, but not so much so as to be considered "ab-normal"....am I right?

    Thanks again all of you for stopping by and reading my story.

    • 1 vote
    #1.8 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 10:18 AM EST
    palabracho

    Oh my, I never intended to sound like I was on one side of the tracks and someone on the other. I just wanted to give an example of different kinds of 'normal.' I live in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle that, as a 'norm,' is very liberal and eclectic with many different lifestyles.  Bellevue's 'norm' is certainly not as diverse or as liberal.  We are just twenty minutes away, separated by Lake Washington. I should have been more descriptive in my initial comment. My fault. 

    No harm done?

      #1.9 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 6:53 PM EST
      Tumbleweed58

      @ palabracho

      I never meant for my reply to sound that way either.  My sincere apologies!  I am so sorry that I didn't word things better.   Definitely my fault.   :{

      • 1 vote
      #1.10 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 7:47 PM EST
      Miss_Diagnosed

      I stand by my statement that people in Boulder are a little off kilter... of course the naked pumpkin run sure is fun to watch :)

      • 1 vote
      #1.11 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 8:44 PM EST
      Hekofawoman

      All I can say about "normal" is what is appropriate at any given time....otherwise we are basically all screwed! Just a bit of satire but true if you think about it. I do my best under pressure, but Idle time is sometimes just "crazy"......

      • 2 votes
      #1.12 - Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:30 AM EDT
      Tumbleweed58

      Hek...you get "idle" time? Wow! How do you do that?.... [just teasing you.] 8)

      Thanks for stopping by and reading my story, and for taking the time to comment on it.

      • 1 vote
      #1.13 - Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:11 AM EDT
      Reply
      LadySaidy

      Very good question. I think society at large determines what is normal. If you think about the past, at one time it was normal to have your parents pick your spouse. Now, in the US, it is not considered normal.

      Yes. Very good question. I will definitely have to think on this more.

      And probably bring it up with my own therapist. ;)

      • 5 votes
      Reply#2 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:11 PM EST
      Tumbleweed58

      Thanks for stopping by Lady Saidy...it does make one wonder doesn't it?  Maybe it's all in how it's interpreted.  Or perceived?  Or ??????   :-)

      • 4 votes
      #2.1 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:35 PM EST
      jiub

      I love this post!  It grabbed my attention the second I saw the title as I've often wondered about this question msyself.

      I think LadySaidy has said it best...

      I think society at large determines what is normal. If you think about the past, at one time it was normal to have your parents pick your spouse. Now, in the US, it is not considered normal.

      Spot on answer in my opinion. :-)

        #2.2 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 2:13 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Jiub...thanks for your comment, and for stopping by to read my story.  Not sure that any of us has come up with a definant, concrete answer though.  Thanks again for reading my story. 

        • 1 vote
        #2.3 - Wed Jan 7, 2009 10:22 AM EST
        Reply
        rottlady

        I think being compared to anyone else or a standard is wrong. Normal isn't what everyone else does, normal it what is what's normal to you.

        I really disagree with her thoughts about the situation you mention, I would let him in also...because of the reasons you cited. (kids and all) It might be different if he was threatening to you are the kids. Baring that I'd let him in too.

        I know what I just said went in circles, lol maybe I need a therapist...*smiles*

        • 9 votes
        Reply#3 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:29 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks rottlady.  I appreciate your thoughts and support.  Glad you stopped by.  Thanks again.  :)

        • 5 votes
        #3.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:16 PM EST
        Reply
        Donna DoreenDeleted
        Tumbleweed58

        rottlady...thank you for stopping in to read this.

        I think being compared to anyone else or a standard is wrong. Normal isn't what everyone else does, normal it what is what's normal to you.

        I agree, and that was some of my argument, that this was ME and MY situation, etc.

        and yes, the kids really played a big part....I'm just glad it didn't ever come up in court.  LOL.  That judge and I would have gone around big time I'm sure!   :-)

        • 5 votes
        Reply#5 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:39 PM EST
        Arizonan

        I agree that I would probably do the same thing. Maybe that means all of us who read the same thing belong to some subclass of normals... LOL

        I am sure I do and am many things that are not considered the norm.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#6 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:42 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Arizonan >>> I don't think any of us are substandard products of the Creator....unless it's those who "set the standards".  LOL.  If we were all the same it would be pretty boring...so I continue to ask, "what's normal"? and "by who's standards"?

        Thanks for stopping by.

        • 3 votes
        #6.1 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:49 PM EST
        Arizonan

        I didn't mean sub standard. I just ment a sub class of normal, such as a rose or tulip would be a "sub class" (in my thinking) of a flower. Still a flower, just not the whole definition of flower...

        Now, by my thinking you can see if I am normal.. LOL

        • 2 votes
        #6.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 1:50 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        @ Arizonan

        My mistake.  In other words, "different" but still "normal".  LOL

        • 3 votes
        #6.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 5:51 AM EST
        Reply
        hippiechick68

        As a therapist myself, I am a little shocked by this exchange.  It is not my "job" as a therapist to tell anyone what is normal.  Actually, I am much more likely to help people explore their own individuality, rather than accepting a societal construct of what is "normal" or "average".  I actually wondered if she was using a paradoxical intervention, as I often do, especially when someone is being particularly stubborn or judgemental (of self or others) about an issue  ;)

        And, having been involved in counseling many who are in the throes of a divorce, I also am confused about why this sort of question would come up in a divorce proceeding.  ??

        And....if an act of humanity is not "normal", then those who are "normal" need a compassion check.  ;)

        • 8 votes
        Reply#7 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:47 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks Hippiechick.  It was hard to remember exact words with this as this happened about 1989 (?) and I don't have notes anymore to go off of, but I think I got it fairly close. And please also remember this is small town (and I do mean "small") in the Nebraska panhandle.  It really would not have been unusual for a judge to ask something like that in an attempt to determine if you were sincere about getting the divorce, etc.  In fact, even the judges we have here now days would ask such things I think.  We aren't nearly as formal as other places in the country might be.  She was trying to help me prepare for the court, sort of coaching me, along with my lawyer (they worked very closely together) I just had to challenge everything I guess.

        • 4 votes
        #7.1 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:58 PM EST
        4real?

        Hey hippie, as was going to say as a psychiatrist Kay sucked, but you got it covered

        • 5 votes
        #7.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:47 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        @ 4real?

        :)

        • 1 vote
        #7.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:22 PM EST
        Nic-24

        Hippie & 4real: I agree wholeheartedly. If this was not a paradoxical intervention, I can not understand what kind of therapist would do this. I dont think any of my clients would come back if I laid that kind of judgemental attitude on them.

        Tumbleweed: You go! There is no such thing as "normal" and if there is, who wants to be it anyway, life is too short to conform.

        • 1 vote
        #7.4 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 12:15 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks Nic-24.  I appreciate you stopping by my column and commenting.  Guess I'll stay abnormal with  all the rest of you Viners. (teasing)  *laughs*

        • 1 vote
        #7.5 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 2:27 PM EST
        Hekofawoman

        Hippiechick - Thank you!!!

        • 2 votes
        #7.6 - Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:32 AM EDT
        Tumbleweed58

        :)

        • 1 vote
        #7.7 - Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:14 AM EDT
        Reply
        hippiechick68

        ps.  I really like your writing style.  I was completely engrossed in the story.  :)

        • 6 votes
        Reply#8 - Thu Jan 1, 2009 11:48 PM EST
        Donna DoreenDeleted
        Tumbleweed58

        @ hippiechick and Donna

        Aaww...gee shucks you guys *blushing* *shuffles feet*

        I'm glad you both enjoyed my story and I hope someday to be good enough to write a book or two.... You have no idea how much your encouraging words can mean!  Thanks again, both of you!

        • 5 votes
        #8.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:02 AM EST
        Donna DoreenDeleted
        Reply
        Wheel

        I don't know what normal is, but I'm not it. That's not a bad thing, I know lots of people who aren't normal but they're perfectly nice people. Some of them believe in reincarnation, some of them (ok, me) talk to their pets as though they were people and talk to their children as though they were pets, some of them are into astrology or deer hunting with black powder guns, some of them wander the streets and talk to themselves. But, they are all nice people that just aren't normal all the way.

        I've never really worried about normal or not, just nice or not. I think lots of otherwise normal people have something they're a little bit nuts about, does that make being a little bit nuts normal?

        • 5 votes
        Reply#9 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:02 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        does that make being a little bit nuts normal

        I'm gonna vote "yes".   I like your choice of friends...it's about like mine.  LOL.  and keep talking to pets, and kids, and whoever.....  at least your talking!

        Thanks for stopping by Wheel.  :-)

        • 5 votes
        Reply#10 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:17 AM EST
        DonutLovr

        You have a way with words...I envy your writing skills.

        And since I haven't a clue as to what is normal, I go by these. (hope you don't mind me sharing them)  :)

        Martin Luther King Jr.:
            Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

        Friedrich Nietzsche:
        You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#11 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:27 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks for the compliments Donutlovr.  :-)

        And thanks for sharing----hmm, maybe I'm maladjusted. (?)  I like your way, my way too.  Like that song, you say tomatoe, I say tahmahtoe (?)  LOL

        • 4 votes
        #11.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:32 AM EST
        Reply
        VMS

        Thank the Lord for Not Normal! Now, if the soon to be ex-husband was physically, emotionally abusive and your life was in danger, not letting him into your home may not be a good idea. Then your counselor may have a valid point. But saying, "That is not a normal response," is not advice. And what is up with the hypothetical?  What a waste of time and money!  Sorry, but I think your response was just fine.  You are a caring person.  Maybe not being caring nowadays is not normal.  So be it!  Happy New Years, Tumbleweed! 

        Victoria

        • 4 votes
        Reply#12 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:29 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks VMS.  I'm glad you stopped by, especially since you came loaded with compliments.  LOL

        Happy New Years to you too. 

        • 4 votes
        #12.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:34 AM EST
        Reply
        Phedre

        This reminds me of a song/story by Utah Philips, some folk singer my brother listens to... He's telling a story about a trip he took with his daughter. The two of them are out with the girls god mother and he does something which embarrassed his daughter and she asks him "Why can't you be normal?" and the godmother says "What you mean to say is 'Why can't you be AVERAGE?'"

        Most days I think people are too concerned with being perceived as being normal and not concerned enough with being themself. If everyone is going to be the same the what is the point of humanity? Individuality is what makes life so interesting.

        ~P

        Oh and by the way I enjoyed the poop analogy  TUMBLEWEED58.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#13 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 1:06 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Phedre thanks for stopping by and commenting.  You may be right about the "average" as opposed to "normal"....and that song sounds like a good one.

        Just for the record, I posted this as "fiction" and took the liberty of name changes, etc.,....BUT my lawyer really did refer me and I really did go through this and she really did put that question out to me AND I really did "question" the 'normal', as well as insist that I would let the "ex" in.....I also really did use the poop analogy.  Guess I'm just me...normal or not.  LOL

        • 4 votes
        #13.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:45 PM EST
        Reply
        factcheckme

        i agree that this is a bizarre exchange and should never have been a part of a formal therapy session.  wow!  i HOPE therapy has changed drastically if that was considered normal in 1989.  actually, i was in family therapy as a child when my parents were getting divorced (a long time ago, also in the 80s) and then went again a few years ago, and i told the new therapist what those family sessions had entailed and he was SHOCKED.  he said he was amazed that i ever wanted to come back, and that he couldnt believe the things i described (like certain very abusive roll-plays and name calling for example).

        i also think therapists are a bit shocked when their clients are educated, it throws them off their game, and certainly when their clients are smarter than they are. 

        happy new year!

        • 4 votes
        Reply#14 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:24 AM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        factcheckme I really thank you for reading and commenting on this.  I'm sorry you had a bad childhood experience with therapy but hopefully your new therapist, as well as your own maturing and all, has helped you cope with things.  You mentioned that your new therapist was shocked by what you had been exposed to, and that reminded me that years ago, "they" actually did use a "shock" treatment for some mental patients.  I wonder if they still do?  And, does it really help?

        Thanks again for your comments...  :)

        • 3 votes
        #14.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:51 PM EST
        hippiechick68

        "they" actually did use a "shock" treatment for some mental patients.  I wonder if they still do?  And, does it really help?

        Yes, shock therapy (aka ECT) is still used.  However, it is much more humane, controlled and targeted now, than in the 70's and 80's.  I actually have worked with a few people (one currently) who have been treated with ECT, and have seen the positive results...especially with those who have severe depression.   The one side effect, for some, is short-term memory loss, which typically lessens in the weeks following the end of a course of treatment.  But, for those who suffer from severe depression, the side effects are well worth the benefit.  ECT does not work for everyone, but when it does, it can (literally) be a life-saving treatment. 

        • 5 votes
        #14.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:15 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Wow...Thanks hippiechick....I knew a lady that had this treatment (repeatedly I think) in the 50's and 60's....she was a beautiful and really neat lady, but had suffered with severe depression.  I didn't know if it was still practiced....

        Can I come to you if I need therapy?  :)

        • 3 votes
        #14.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:26 PM EST
        hippiechick68

        Sure, step right in my office.   My hours are wacky, but you can make an appointment. 

        • 5 votes
        #14.4 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:43 PM EST
        Tumbleweed58

        Thanks Hippiechick....cool office....I'll be back for that appointment!  LOL

        • 3 votes
        #14.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:07 PM EST
        Scott (Scoop) Butki

          also think therapists are a bit shocked when their clients are educated, it throws them off their game, and certainly when their clients are smarter than they are. 

        This is quite true. When I was in therapy I’d ask if she read this or that book on depression and anxiety (I think I was asking if she read Noonday Demon)– and was disappointed she did not.

        Ultimately she pronounced me graduated from therapy because I was usually more self-aware and reflective without her help than I was with her help.

          #14.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:46 PM EST
          Scott (Scoop) Butki

           

          Carrie Fisher has a great new memoir and she talks quite openly about how ECT (electric shock therapy) helped her. It’s a good quick read.

           But I think the shock therapy of today is way different from how it was decades ago, as portrayed in One Flew over the cuckoo's nest

            #14.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:57 PM EST
            Tumbleweed58

            i also think therapists are a bit shocked when their clients are educated, it throws them off their game, and certainly when their clients are smarter than they are. 

            I don't think this is limited to "just" therapists.  I am not a "smart" person, but I am not "stupid" either.  I think our mind is a fascinating thing and none of us (especially myself) uses it to the full capacity.  But I have been accused of "overwhelming" people and have a tendency to drive them "crazy" with my curiosity and questioning everything and anything, which they often misconstrue as being "argumentative" and disagreeable.  All I'm doing is trying to learn and see things from someone else's perspective before forming my own opinion/judgement.  I just need to try to remember that while some of us are good at some things, others are good at other things.

            • 1 vote
            #14.8 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 8:35 PM EST
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            I have to share a story, prompted by this

            My dad - and now me - tends to over-research (if such a thing is possible) big decisions, be it choosing a car or a new digital camera.

            So what did he do when diagnosed with cancer? He checked out book after book from the library about cancer as if information is not only power (it is) but could stop the cancer with this knowledge.
            So it seemed only natural that he was part of a research experiment himself as they tried a new procedure on him to fight the cancer. He lost the fight but knowing his information stemming from this provided more research and info to others seemed quite suitting as did our request that gifts and donations be made in his name to the group doing the study.

            So what did I do when I realized during grief counseling that I had a life-long problem with depression but was only now able to articulate the problem (link to my own depression piece)? Why I read everything I could be it memoirs and books and such. It wasnt long before I was the best read on the subject when I'd attend a depression support group (fitting that I later left because I'd leave it feeling more depressed than enriched) and citing books to my therapists who made it clear they had not read the same books.

              #14.9 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 7:31 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Thank you for sharing that bit of insight Scott. 

              My mom and I are both avid readers and "research" everything, or so it seems, from medical, herbal supplements, financial "stuff" and investing, wind turbines, and me: electronics before purchasing, etc., you name it!  Ha!   I even researched carburators when I was told I needed to switch from the "ventura" (which had 2 little sliders and would easily clog with dirt)  to a "holly"(which was more like "butterfly" wings. At least I think that was how it went, been years ago.)  My problem is that once I have moved onto some other topic, I tend to forget things from the previous one.  LOL.  But in the process I learned a little about catalitic converters (sp?).  My mechanic stood with his mouth agape when I joined him under the "rack" and pointed it out and was able to carry on a half-way informed conversation with him regarding the mechanics of my car.  It was a great feeling to at least ask some intelligent questions. Guess it's what's important to you at the time that makes a topic stay in the forfront of the mind tho'.   I agree with you that knowledge is power. 

              My dad also died of cancer, but I'm sorry you and your family had to go through that too.  My folks went to the Bahamas to try a procedure (interferon---(sp?) which was like "protein" shots.  This was in the early 1980's and this procedure was not allowed in the US.  However, dad also lost his battle.  We feel this was a good procedure, that it just might have worked, if he had gotten it sooner and not waited 'til he was so far along with the illness.

              I also have suffered severe depression and have done lots of research as well.  Not to mention all the counseling, and even meds that left me feeling so "out of it"!   I no longer do the counseling and I no longer take all those medications....(my choice).  I even had a therapist tell me I didn't need to come back because I questioned some prescriptions she had given me (I never filled them and still don't know what they were for, or side effects, etc.).  But I never went back either.

              A number of the comments on this article have been wonderful and have given me ideas for some other articles.   I just don't have the time or the energy at the moment....but I have notes!  LOL.

              • 1 vote
              #14.10 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:06 PM EST
              Reply
              MoonCrow

              Tumbleweed. Enjoyed your article.

              In my humble opinion, normal does not exist. When someone uses the word, what they are really saying is that it doesn’t fit into their reality or it doesn’t fit with what they want in my reality. It is a "power and control" word, often evoked to make one question one's own convictions or to gain control of or manipulate you. 

              When faced with it, we can either accept the differences, compromise on behaviours, or discard people and situations that don’t meet our idea of reality, a.k.a. normal.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#15 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:04 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Hi mooncrow and thanks for stopping by and commenting. 

              "power and control"

              Damn!  I hate that...I don't want to be controlled by someone who "thinks" they have the "power".....LOL....oops!  there's the rebel in me coming out....  :)

              don't like manipulation either.....guess I prefer being a "free spirit"....

              • 3 votes
              #15.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:55 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              @mooncrow

              P.S.   you are such a talented painter,   maybe my writing will be my "painting" (?)   :)

              • 4 votes
              #15.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:09 PM EST
              MoonCrow

              Tumbleweed ... "thanks" and I was thinking the same thing.

              • 2 votes
              #15.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 8:40 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              :))

              • 2 votes
              #15.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:30 PM EST
              Reply
              Fausts son

              Wow What a great story you told Tumbleweed, well written and kept me engrossed. I have, since I was young had to deal with the issue of normalcy, I was always the difficult one, the black sheep and it was hard growing up to hear that I wasn't 'normal' by my family standards. I decided that I would embrace my difference and continue down my own path. I never looked back.

              I am glad you stood up for your personal and individual beliefs, it is what makes us unique, we need more of this in a society that trys to push us all in a mold, the media continues this with all the garbage of normalcy they spew forth.

              Lets hear it for the individual, they make the new, when everybody sticks to the old.

              • 8 votes
              Reply#16 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:39 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Fausts son....thank you for your positive support.  I too am a "black sheep", but fortunately still maintain close family ties and support.  I am definitely an individual and my poor family sometimes goes through hell when I dig my heels in and refuse to budge just because someone thinks I should.  LOL

              You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.  (don't know who said that)?

              • 3 votes
              #16.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:59 PM EST
              Reply
              Ruth4Equality

              IMO it is the therapist who is bordoring on not being normal. Any person with a degree of compassion or humanity would not turn away even a soon-to-be-ex when a blizzard is raging and he says he has no place to go or anyway to get there.. To let the father of your children into your warm home (note- you did not say you would also let him into your bed or life as a significant person again) - that is Normal...

              And- just because we have to sever the ties of a failed marriage, as in my case due to extreme abuse and alcoholism (and I discovered later- a string of girlfriends on the side) - does not mean we stop loving. We do what is necessary to keep us intact and safe- and sane.

              So - if closing the door on him, perhaps to later find him frozen on the front lawn - is considered normal - I for one am grateful that I have long admitted that nothing about me is "normal"..

              • 3 votes
              Reply#17 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:00 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Hi Ruth...Thank you so very much for expressing your opinion so well here.  I really appreciate that!

              Hope you had a good holiday and Happy New Year....I'll try to call you again soon, okay?   :)

              • 4 votes
              #17.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:03 PM EST
              Reply
              Atsidi

              First off, I think your writing is good enough right now to write a book. The number of books I have read is probably in the thousands at this point in my life, so I consider myself something of an authority on what is readable and what is junk.

              In my mind,  asking what is "normal" is right up there with asking what is the meaning of life? The only answer I have ever come up with that works for me in both cases is that it is whatever definition  you choose to assign to the question.

              It is fairly  "normal" now days for people to be afraid of strangers, so would it be normal to turn a stranger away in the hypothetical situation posed to you about your husband? Would you turn a stranger away and leave them out in the cold to freeze?

              Normal is not necessarily good either. It is normal these days for people to argue and bicker over political ideologies but it is not necessarily a good thing. War and killing seem to be the norm, but I would hardly call that a good thing.

              If you seek to live your life with some sense of purpose and do the right thing in dealing with others you may not be normal, but you will not be wrong either. 

              • 5 votes
              Reply#18 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:21 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Would you turn a stranger away and leave them out in the cold to freeze?

              No, I probably would not....and now that you mention it, I think I had this same scenario in my original argument.

              Hey.  Thanks so much for stopping in and commenting, as well as the lovely compliments.  *smiles*

              • 4 votes
              #18.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:07 PM EST
              Reply
              Lilithbytes

              Normal is should be like the bar in high jump, you can go over it or under it, it moves up and down, all we know is that we imagine that when we get to the other side, it is going to be pretty cushy.  So normal is just a guide so we don't hurt ourselves, everyone is unique.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#19 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 2:08 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Thanks Lilithbytes...good analogy and good points...thanks for contributing here, and please stay unigue yourself (love your work!)  .. :)

              • 4 votes
              #19.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:10 PM EST
              Reply
              savannahborn

              So much for normal, cause I would have responded exactly as you did.  Anything else doesn't make sense to me.  Oh well.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#20 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 2:26 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              savannahborn, this is the third time I've tried to respond to your comment but there seems to be a glitch of some sort, and the good people on the vine that fix these things are aware and working on it (at least I think so as I reported it)....anyway...my apologies for not being able to get back to you, as well as some others, a little sooner.

              I thank you for reading and commenting on my story....and for all your patience with me here....    :)

              • 3 votes
              #20.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:31 PM EST
              savannahborn

              I've experienced the glitches, believe me.  I understand.  As I read the comments here, I don't think anyone on the vine is normal.  I wonder if that is what draws us here.

              • 2 votes
              #20.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:52 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              @ savannahborn #20.2

              We "viners" may not be normal but we sure have fun!!  LOL   :)

              • 3 votes
              #20.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:08 PM EST
              Reply
              dixiedi

              I would just as soon run my X over or thump him up the side of the head with a frying pan. But.. if he were out in the cold and hungry I would still invite him in. Give him a chance to behave while he ate and warmed up (as long as my hubby or one of my grown sons were here as he was abusive to me).

              I really don't know if I could let him spend the night, but not because of anything other than he is an abusive person and I really don't want me or any of my family to go to jail for putting that worthless piece of shi* down. Yea, I would feed him and let him warm up though, he is still a living being. BTW, I would also feed a rabid dog, from a distance, until the dog catcher arrived.

              Oh my, my normal might not be very normal, at least not in this situation.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#21 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 6:48 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              dixiedi you have such a way of putting this.  LOL.  Thanks for your response....

              rabid dog????

              :)  :) 

              my normal might not be very normal

              As far as I can tell, you're as normal as any one else here....LOL

              • 3 votes
              #21.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:55 PM EST
              Reply
              Loretta Kemsley

              I'm a rebel, the farthest thing from "normal" and wouldn't have it any other way. The most productive and creative among us would never fit the idea of "normal" in anyone's book. No one would call Einstein or Thoreau normal by society's standards, but they are both well respected.

              I can't imagine why such a question would ever come up in divorce. No matter how you would answer, it would have no relevance on whether or not you really wanted a divorce. Battered women don't necessarily want a divorce, but they need to be free from the violence, so they would fear letting him in under any circumstances. Others might feel completely comfortable allowing him in for temporary shelter but have moved on with their lives.

              • 4 votes
              Reply#22 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:00 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Loretta, from one rebel to another, I thank you!

              :)

              • 3 votes
              #22.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:57 PM EST
              Reply
              Sandie Seward

              Normal=Boring.  All so-called "normal" people I know are really boring. None of my friends, the people I care about, are what would be classed as "normal"

              I have a habit of attracting "Lame Ducks" as friends, but, I really would not want it any other way.

              One of my friends has a Court Case coming up later this month. What did he do?

              Drunk out of his head, he stood in a public car park and waved a Samurai Sword around.

              I shall try to be at Court to offer him my support. He is harmless, not dangerous, just not "normal".

              But I don't turn my back on friends. Perhaps that's not "normal" either?

              • 3 votes
              Reply#23 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:02 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Sandie hi....I would agree that normal=boring,,,,since I don't thing I'm exactly boring then I 'm probably not exactly normal either.  LOL 

              Your friends sound cool and I'm glad you are supporting each other....let me know the outcome of this case ok?  (I'm curious now)  :)

              Thanks again..

              • 3 votes
              #23.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:15 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              since I don't thing

              Oops!  Not "thing" but "think".....sorry

              • 4 votes
              #23.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:07 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              My #23.2 above:

              (one of those things being discussed here)

              • 1 vote
              #23.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:48 PM EST
              Reply
              Mrs Brady

              Isn't being so called normal really abnormal ? and very boring also !

              • 4 votes
              Reply#24 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:36 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Good point Mrs. B....sorta like the "imperfection" in and of "perfection"....excellent!  I like that.  thanks!  :)

              • 4 votes
              #24.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:17 AM EST
              dixiedi

              Maybe normal is being invisible as you walk down the street or as you go about your everyday life.

              Abnormal would be the one who stands out, way out, in the crowd.

              The rest of us, neither invisible nor standing way out are someplace in the middle. Probably the safest and most comfortable place to be as well as the most interesting.

              • 4 votes
              #24.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 2:28 PM EST
              Mrs Brady

              middle sound like a good place to be :)

              • 2 votes
              #24.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 2:33 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Yeh.  I like middle....nice and warm and cozy....     :)

              • 4 votes
              #24.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 3:48 PM EST
              Reply
              G. H.

              I can't say there is any such thing as normal. Very rich people, in lovely homes, whose friends are the same as they.......normal

              Group of people living together in a commune for the good of each.................normal

              Hard working husband, stay at home wife, 2 children.......normal

              two person household, a dog, a cat, no children..................normal

              I could go all day long with examples. I say whatever feels good and right to oneself is normal. Many think of me as being quite eccentric, but to me, I am normal. No one should force you or make you feel "less than" because you think differently.  What truly SHOULD be "NORMAL" is everyone living by the golden rule.  But, do you see that happening? No.

              So, I say both you and I are normal for who we are. I would let mine in too,   :-)   (both ex husbands and the 20 year relationship that ended last year, they'd probably get along fine together.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#25 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:00 AM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Hi G.H.,

              And thanks for stopping by.  I like your comparisons for what is normal and how it might be something different for someone else.  Good points.  I also liked:

              What truly SHOULD be "NORMAL" is everyone living by the golden rule

              but as you said, sadly it doesn't always happen that way.  :)

              • 3 votes
              #25.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:17 PM EST
              Loretta Kemsley

              Well said, G H. I too feel as if I am normal, yet I know many people think I am eccentric -- or worse. Some love me for being the odd woman out and others just wish I'd go away. I love living on the outer edges. They are fun and exciting, never boring.

              Tumbleweed,

              Thanks for posing the question in the first place. It's interesting reading the various perspectives. Gives me lots to think about.

              lore

              • 1 vote
              #25.2 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 3:57 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Lore...I'm so glad you enjoyed my article.  Thanks for stopping by.  And, I like eccentric...I'm a wanna be.  LOL   :)

              • 1 vote
              #25.3 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 8:39 PM EST
              Loretta Kemsley

              Like any other field, wannabes just need to practice being eccentric in order to establish their bona fides. It's great fun driving everyone else nuts while they try to guess what you're up to.

              LOL

              Lore

              • 1 vote
              #25.4 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 9:00 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              It's great fun driving everyone else nuts while they try to guess what you're up to.

              I love it!  You go girl!  *smiles secretively*  You have an awesome avatar!  Please accept my friend request.  :)

              • 1 vote
              #25.5 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 9:23 PM EST
              Loretta Kemsley

              Proud to call you friend. Thanks for asking. I too love my avatar. She's "Moon Goddess" by my favorite artist, Josephine Wall: http://www.josephinewall.co.uk/

              She allows limited use of her art as long as her rules are followed. I have several of her images in my home. Just amazingly beautiful.

              Lore

              • 1 vote
              #25.6 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:18 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Lore

              @25.6

              Wow.  What beautiful artwork...cool site.  Thanks for sharing my friend.  *smiles*

              • 1 vote
              #25.7 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 11:24 PM EST
              Reply
              engel-johnsonDeleted
              Sara G.

              *Glances up at the post just above hers and cringes* Ok THAT'S not normal!!!!(The one from Tana...)

              Anyway...I wanted to post as well that I enjoyed your writing, you are well blessed with a real talent...please keep writing!

              And, I wanted to say that normal is what we live with everyday, and it is indeed what is normal for US and not for the world at large!

              ..I read somewhere, and it seems to fit in here....that "NORMAL" is just a setting on a washing machine.....

              *Smiles warmly*

              ~Sara

              • 5 votes
              Reply#27 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:04 AM EST
              KJakers

              sara that sound like a scam to me (referring to the article that was posted above you) what is scarey is that some desperate people may respond to her

              • 2 votes
              #27.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 12:45 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Hi Sara,

              That was one weird post and undoubtedly a scam....weird too because it was there, then deleted (and I hadn't yet deleted it), then was back again, and as I'm typing this to you is shows deleted again...and again, I didn't do it.  Strange!!!

              The post Sara and I are referring to stated they were looking for a husband and had over $4,000 they wanted to deposit to a bank account if you would send them your bank information,  and that they were in a refugee camp, etc.  Do you get computer access when in a refugee camp?  And asking for money or any other personal information  like that is nothing but a scam...besides which, this is not a "personnals" column or site, and so this was a very inappropriate post....I also found where a couple other people on the vine received it as well....so just a heads up to everyone else here on the who is legit. (note:  I reported this to Newsvine after I was unable to find a column for Engel-Johnson.  I did a search and found where the same post was on a couple of other columns, but the "letter" was signed with a different name.  So I was holding off deleting until Newsvine officials had a chance to see it)

               And Sara, I apologize to you especially that you had to see it, and to anyone else commenting here on my article who may have seen it, my apologies.

              Sara, I sincerely thank you for your compliments and you comment.  I really like the "washing machine" analogy.  LOL  But how true when you think about it!

              • 3 votes
              #27.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:03 PM EST
              hippiechick68

              That same post, or another similar one by Tara, was all over Newsvine this morning.  They showed up on a few of my seeds this morning.  I reported them, as they are obviously spam.  And, very weird to boot!

              • 6 votes
              #27.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:08 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Hippiechick

              Yeh.  Hopefully the powers that be on Newsvine can do something....but otherwise I think so long as we're all aware and no-one "falls" for it, it will be nothing more than a big annoyance that we'll just have to delete.  Glad you reported it too.

              :)

              • 4 votes
              #27.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:20 PM EST
              SuperSaiyan

              Yeah, I just noticed that deleted post in one of the stories that I've seeded myself(I don't know what it said since I just logged on not and when I noticed it, it was already deleted)...

              • 2 votes
              #27.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Heh heh!  Not gonna let any ol' spammers get us!  :p

              • 3 votes
              #27.6 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 3:50 PM EST
              G. H.

              Whew! For a moment there, I thought you were being "stalked" because some one saw your "normalcy" and felt that if you would let your ex in the house, you might let them as well!  BEWARE    LOL  :-)

              • 3 votes
              #27.7 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:03 PM EST
              Tumbleweed58

              Thanks G.H.  :)  Good to know someones watching out for me....LOL

              • 3 votes
              #27.8 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:38 PM EST
              Reply
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